Many years from now, Clio (the Muse of history) will acknowledge this demo was an event of great impact.
At the surface it was simple: Defkalion made a written promise-the Protocol:
and then made a demo keeping all its promises- brightly.
I wrote that Defkalion is a company of high professionalism and this became obvious from the first sequences of this 9+ hours test.
Yiannis Hadjichristos was in excellent form and his expose was flawless, he knows the lesson because he had a great role in creating this lesson- the Hyperion, step by step with great efforts.
Hs team-mate Stavros- the operator was admirable. Looking at them you could also understand the creative power of routine, this test had a long prehistory of trials, tests, errors, new trials and successes.
Probably you have noticed the absence of some persons who had to be there according to their function or to the Protocol but surely you have not observed that somebody unexpected was very present and disturbingly active. It was the malefic spirit haunting first of all the technologies, known as Captain Edward A. Murphy; you know him and his (CENSORED!) Laws:
http://www.murphys-laws.com/ When I was working in R&D Murphy has almost killed me (or my reputation, what’s worse!) and I have created a personality, Yves Henri Prum, YHPRUM is MURPHY written in reverse- the Father of Technological Optimism to fight with Murphy). Prum’s war against Murphy
Now, Murphy has made Alex, the CEO of Defkalion, very ill. Alex heroically took the risk and was present at this historical
event and has two times spoken to the public. I congratulated him
at Skype both for the test and for his courage. Symeon the Director for Business Development at DGT had a gardening accident and could not come to Milano..
The Professor from CERN had to leave urgently due to his mother’s serious health problem; however he was enthusiastic in his comments and hopefully we will hear from him.
Add to this that the local DGT leader, Luca Gamberale became exhausted at the previous day’s Italian demo
The contact with mass media, especially TV is very stressing for
people of high value who suffer from something called modesty
(I lack this gene, cannot tell you anything relevant about it but it seems powerful)
Mats Lewan, our journalist colleague who has helped at calibration and in demonstrating that there are not hidden energy sources gave me the impression that he feels the pressure of the skeptics who will accuse him of insufficient vigilance and making a pact with the “enemy” had a “black finger” and succeeded to blew the fuse of the entire building when trying to connect an oscilloscope- it was said “fortunately” – in the degassing period between the argon and the hydrogen test.
I had a different opinion- the demo had been compressed in a limited time frame- a two days test in a half day and the degassing period was already shortened. Deep degassing is for me kind of techno-obsession you know my fixation that air molecules compete with deuterium or hydrogen for the active sites (NAE) And Piantelli has explained me the absolute necessity of deep degassing in gas-phase experiments (see his recent European patent) Alien molecules are bad for the DGT process too., so when I have not heard the noise of the vacuum pump my blood tension raised fast.
Anyway this is a resilient technology and demo was a great success despite partial degassing and all the dirty tricks of Murphy. I think the COP was approximately halved from the optimum, but excess heat is more than obvious, control is good, the “ignition” is fast and the reaction powerful as it is, it can be stopped instantly.
The reactions to this demo cannot be fully evaluated yet. The skeptihawks cannot be convinced by facts; they have Teflon brains specifically for the new sources of energy. I was simply enchanted by Mary Yugo’s fast comment:
There is not much to be learned from a test done with their equipment in their lab by their people.
Sorry for her, it is so bad she cannot learn. She thinks it seems that research can be best done by mercenaries in remote labs with borrowed instruments. When she will buy her first Hyperion boiler she will verify it for hidden invisible wires. Absurd is a euphemism.
DGT is preparing for the next battle.
What next battle are you referring to?
The NI Week Demo but others will follow...Delete
is that demo confirmed by Defkalion?
IMHO this has been the turning point in the arrival of a serious new energy. I will stick to the name HENI for the reason this acronym best describes the effect.
I personally want to thank you for your majestic leadership in maintain your faith as that has certainly helped myself greatly.
Now here is another prediction (said in good humor) our dear friend Maryal Yugo will be soon among the rush to claim glory as the hero who forced a high standard on the developers of this clearly obvious new source of energy. So we must keep space in our hearts to praise that extraordinary and selfless effort.
Best regards and cheers for the DGT team who carried off an incredible event under globally intense pressure. If Murphy had succeeded, it would have been a massive effort to dig the way out from under the subsequent layers of droppings rained down on the team. As it stands Murphy's interference was well contained.
Thank you sincerely
I agree with everything you tell, but the merit vbelongs to the DGT team, this demo was excellent and the technology
is really solid- resists to troubles and challenges as it has to be.
You, Doug are doing a fine work on rather hostile forums, you are much more patient, polite and tolerant than me. But also much more effective.
Let's watch together the coming events
Ok Peter, finally I've seen facts so I have to apologize with you and with John Hadjichristos for what I said some months ago.ReplyDelete
The Tuesday's demo has been extremely convincing from my point of view, only a few details had to be done differently such as hydrogen consuming, thermocouples and power analyzer calibration, and above all they had to show us the steam in a better way, nothing is so impressive like a jet of superheated steam (the perfect picture for scientific magazines' cover), but it doesn't change the substance.
About the degassing, I would suggest to do it after the test with hydrogen i.e. first the active run (hydrogen) and then the blank run (argon) in order to be sure that the argon doesn't change the conditions needed for the reaction.
Thanks to Mats Lewan's work, others details are for patho-skeptic and it's not definitely my case, I always believed in CF/LENR and Rossi's and Piantelli's works, now also in Defkalion's one. I don't even read any more maryyugo's comments or comments by people that don't understand that research and development need time and the same for commercial strategies and agreements with other companies.
It's clear that Defkalion has a LENR+ technology and the full control of the reaction.
What a pity that the COP has not been as high as the Monday's demo but it is also clear that the real COP is higher than what we've seen because of the steam enthalpy not kept into account (and with 150°C steam, if dry, it should be a lot).
I'm looking forward for further details, improvements (I would like to see the R6 reactor in action) and an independent test, maybe more independent than Rossi's, in order to make open the eyes to the mainstream scientific community, although I see this is not a priority for Defkalion in the near future, and maybe not so important by now. Mainstream science can stay where it is, LENR+ is real even without it.
Congratulations to all and thanks Peter for your instructive work, I always appreciated it.
Thank you for your kind and true words.
Yiannis is sending you the logica/technological answer to your good question:
"“if we had scheduled to run the H2 active test first and then the control Argon test with not proper degassing, then the Argon test could give positive COP as some H2 would be trapped in the active sites! Off course the duration of excess heat during that pseudo-control test would be limited but then the reasonable questions to be raised on the calorimetry would be huge.
To avoid the last I took the risk to run the tests with such sequence (we have done it several times like that) warning from the beginning on the possibility of the interference of remaining Ar but not to a level that could create any doubt on the signal to noise ratio.”
Yiannis has answered immediately, the delay is my fault.
Now my idea- independent tests become slowly kind of fetish
ideal- we need good tests first, independent tests will be made mainly by the customer/market. Can a taxi driver test a Formula 1 car?
If DGT is not actively cheating, then we have indeed turned the corner with LENR. The mechanism may be very different from any nuclear origin. That will allow sckeptics to save face.ReplyDelete
"Mary Yugo’s fast comment:
There is not much to be learned from a test done with their equipment in their lab by their people.
Sorry for her, it is so bad she cannot learn. She thinks it seems that research can be best done by mercenaries in remote labs with borrowed instruments. "
Let me reply with the same writing style you use. You would allow the fox to guard the chicken coop.
Analogies have to be used with care, good metaphors are rare.
If Yiannis is the fox, what is the chicken coop?
But I have to confess you I hsve some problems with time management just now, so polemics is the last thing I need.
A question to you and not rhetorical (do not forget that I don't know much about you just that you live in the LA area?) -the question is can you imagine yourself in the role played by Mats
Lewan at the 23 July demo? (but not blowing the main fuse)z/
Pls. write to my private address if you have time
Good wishes despite some divergent opinions
Can I imagine myself in Mats Lewan's role? Sure. I like what Mats Lewan is doing. I understand why he is not more critical. If he were, Rossi and Defkalion would throw him out! He's enough of a nuisance to them as it is. He provides information that they don't and which supports the contention that both are making invalid claims and using bad measurement methods.
In fact, at one time, I communicated with Jed Rothwell about the best way to test Rossi. Jed came up with a good proposal and I suppose I would have gone to Italy to help him if it had been necessary (it probably wasn't). Anyway, Rossi categorically refused to run the tests so there was no issue of my going.
At the moment, I do not have the time and do not wish to spend the energy that Mats does. I am glad he is able to do it.
Hope that answers your question. If you want to reach me privately, write to maryyugo[at symbol]yahoo.com. I don't recall having a private address for you.
Let's discuss a bit, you have (I think) to contribute not to vaguelly
criticize Mats in this case. The problem is HOW to be more critical
in practice. You see the Hyperion, you know the parameters etc; now what to do inspect try search for? A protocol you suggest for the next demo
of DGT. I ma NOT speaking here about Rossi he has a different triggering
mechanism, different technical principle. Please refer to Defkalions next test
No generalities, no ideologies as the individual who makes the control
MUST be deeply convinced that this is fake fraud otherwise he is
an accomploce. ONLY TECHNiCALITIES If you are a technologist with
Here is a suggestion, Peter. I suggest that Defkalion do a live demo at NI Week. I suggest that they invite NI technicians to review their entire measurement method, calculations and conclusions, just as they did for Celani. And I suggest that NI provide all the sensors and that they fully approve the protocol for the test officially. I bet they won't want two phase flow in the output power measurement circuit!Delete
Can you get them to agree to that sort of a demonstration? Celani did although it did not confirm his claim of excess heat.
I'd also like to see measurement of their alleged one Tesla magnetic field at NI Week. That's a huge field. Should be simplicity itself to measure it.
That is a good start. My initial reaction to your suggestions is "then what?" - i.e. once that event passes assuming with success, what is the next requirement to satisfy skepticism ?, and, how many more ?.
I promised to myself to not reading anymore your comment, instead ...
> I bet they won't want two phase flow in the output power measurement circuit!
you didn't follow accurately the demo because the temperature of the flow affects reactor body's temperature. Without proper temperature and in particular proper gradient between the front and the back of the reactor, the reaction's ignition can't start and can't be maintained.
During the demo those temperature were about 190°C and 290°C and IMHO water in the coils with temperatures below 100°C are going to destabilize the reaction.
On the other hand, you should be happy they neglect the steam enthalpy, with that into account the COP had been by far greater.
"you didn't follow accurately the demo because the temperature of the flow affects reactor body's temperature. "Delete
Hi Franco. I followed Defkalion's claims of mid 2011 on their forum. They said they had *dozens* of reactors under test which made more than 10kW and were cooled by an entirely liquid system. They hinted that the coolant was a silicone oil. So if they were not lying then, why go back to water cooling? And if water cooling adversely affects the reaction, why not use a simple heat exchanger or just make steam and then sparge it into an insulated container to measure the enthalpy? Using two phase flow is confusing. It isn't clear what they are measuring. And of course, their calibration run was at much lower power than the experimental run. I have no idea what they are measuring. It is not clear.
"On the other hand, you should be happy they neglect the steam enthalpy, with that into account the COP had been by far greater."
Happy? Actually, I'd prefer that Defkalion (and Rossi) would be telling the truth. It'd be much more interesting than the obvious lies they have perpetrated for two years. Want me to list the catalog of those again? For Peter's sake I won't. But it includes contradicting each other about their early business arrangements. Anyway, they should not neglect steam enthalpy. They should sparge (condense) the output and measure enthalpy. That would have prevented many of the current arguments about the very strange measurements they obtained and calculations that they made.
Why did they not do that? Why did they not use one of the earlier models that they claimed made plenty of power and had built in liquid flow calorimetry? Remember? From mid 2011. In the forum. Ooops! They deleted it.
"That is a good start. My initial reaction to your suggestions is "then what?" - i.e. once that event passes assuming with success, what is the next requirement to satisfy skepticism ?, and, how many more ?."Delete
A few more independent tests maybe? Then, with belief in the technology becoming widespread (including me and most skeptics), they will get large amounts of investments which will enable them to develop and distribute products much faster. Isn't that what they want? Isn't that why they did this so-called "demo"? How many? Depends who does them. If NI really measured everything totally independent of Defkalion, recorded robust excess heat for a prolonged period of time, made sure there was no fuel input or other trickery, and the president of the company personally agreed it was valid, I'd be amazed and essentially ready to believe Defkalion was for real.
But your question is very premature. I will make you any reasonable bet you like that NI will NOT test a Hyperion using their own methods and instruments. Certainly not at this NI week and probably never. Do you have some evidence to suggest otherwise?
> I followed Defkalion's claims of mid 2011 on their forum. They said they had *dozens* of reactors...
You are out of time, the demo took place on 23th of July *2013*
Who cares if in *2011* they had one, two or dozens of reactors. Reactors are simply elaborated chunk of metal, a mechanic production workshop is able to make hundreds of those parts in a week.
Now you have seen with your eyes they have at least 5 reactors (3 in Milan and 2 in Vancouver) I presume they have others in their Athens headquarters, moreover if you look to the old video by Defkalion, you can see others reactors with different shape (so different ones) hence only in the few videos we have seen 7-8 reactors, what is the problem if they say that they had dozens of reactors? Maybe at that date they had only five or ten reactors instead of twelve, or maybe they had fifteen or twenty, so what?
You are focusing the attention on irrelevant details. Look at the demo and try to find a weak point if there is.
>Happy? Actually, I'd prefer that Defkalion (and Rossi) would be telling the truth.
The truth is that with steam enthalpy the COP would be 10 and maybe greater. The first thing Hadijcristos said about the steam enthalpy was "this is our gift for skeptics". Take the gift and please say thanks.
I do care about the promises of DGT in the past. Their claim is extraordinary and they have stated things in the past that they now do not refer to anymore. At this point there is no way of telling whether it is a scam or not. A test like Maryyugo proposes could give evidence against the scam theory.
their claim are not extraordinary.Delete
they are in line with a long history of scientific experiments.
that those experiment are denied by people who have vested interest to deny them, and who close the story in 6 week, while top level electro-chemist took 1 year to confirm without doubt, is showing that the critics are a pathology not a controversy.
that after ward many experiments raised many result, which at least shoulad have raised controversy and media interest, but did not, continue to prove there is something rotten in that story...
you don't even need to know science to see that it is a pathology that prevent recognition of LENR.
after that serious people have to admit that recognition of reality is impossible, and have to analyse the claims independetly of the priest opinion.
and Defalion like Rossi are simply the answer of reality agains the church.
when the priest burn the witch who dare to look into the telescope, the merchant prepare to mine metals from the asteroids. they don't care to convince the Pope, at most like defkalion they call the heretic priest for help, and at last they will try to convince their clients, in secret if their are corps, and in public at last if they are comsumer.
there is nothing extraordinary, except among the skeptics fairy tale of conspiracy, which is not only extraordinary, but missinh any serious evidence tyo support his claim.
even their theory claims does not hols against someone educated into material science, microelectronics...
but current history shows well that fairy tale when the media relay them are believed by the most numerous and educated brains.
there are even economist who explain that it is not a pathology, bu a rational behavior, caused by agency effect of top managers and inability to escape from effect of delusion in hierarchical organization, for the lower casts.
please stop using the extraordinary calims mooto.
not only it is not to be used ther, but it is moreover false.
extraordinary claims, require normal good evidence.
normal claims requires normal good evidences... I admit it is often not the case, because we trust too much what seems not extraordinary... this cause many errors.
you haven't got the point.
You have seen with your eyes 7-8 reactors, is it so strange to think that they have 12 reactors (4 more)? I think they have and had by far more than 12 reactors in particular in the first stage of development when they had to try different solutions about design, performance, inner core etc..
So what's the point in this topic? Defkalion's fault is that they didn't show you one by one all the reactors they had in their labs? That's ridiculous, pointless and useless.
Somehow you manage to misunderstand not one but two clear responses.
The issue is not that Defkalion didn't show all their reactors. The issue is that they had a BETTER method of measuring output power/energy TWO YEARS AGO than what they are showing today. If they told the truth, which I doubt. If they did NOT tell the truth, guess what they are?
YOU are suggesting that earlier reactors were not ready for prime time. In fact, Defkalion consistently claimed in their forum that they were starting factories to make these reactors. So they must have been pretty good!!
Defkalion said these very reactors, the early ones, were submitted to the Greek government for testing. So where are those better measuring systems? Where are the results of the Greek government testing?
"The truth is that with steam enthalpy the COP would be 10 and maybe greater. The first thing Hadijcristos said about the steam enthalpy was "this is our gift for skeptics". Take the gift and please say thanks."
The truth is that if all the water were converted to steam, the output would be a bit less than 30kW at the claimed delta T and flow rate. Does the video look like 30kW to you? Even 10? If so, you don't know what that level of power in the form of steam coming out of a small tube, looks like and sounds like.
The further truth is that the measurement system, even if it's honest, did not distinguish between the energy in heated water and that contained in the heat of conversion of water to steam. It was a sloppy measurement. It was no gift. It was an unclear mess. The mix of water and steam, if that is what it was, should have been sparged (condensed) at the output in a large insulated container and the temperature rise should have been measured.
Instead, Defkalion created the same sort of confusion about dry vs wet steam that Rossi did. Also the output measures appear to be wrong, just looking at the output tube.
Here is an example of a 10kW turbine.
See the steam coming out of its exhaust? And that is AFTER energy has been extracted by the turbine! Did you see anything remotely like that in the Defkalion demo?
Something was very wrong with that demo. Probably several things. But since it was done entirely by Defkalion, it is impossible to determine what.
So go ahead, Franco. Set up some more strawmen. Don't address the real issues! That wouldn't support your views.
This comment has been removed by the author.Delete
As tired as I'm of reading maryyugo denials, it is almost certain that the steam output that we observed during the demonstration is way too weak to carry 10 grams of water per second -or 15 liters of steam at atmospheric pressure. Look at the observations in Mats Lewan's blog. With a flow that high, two phenomena would be apparent:
-as the steam cools and condenses in the atmosphere, a large vapor plume should be visible.
-the exit speed of the steam would be over 400Km/hour, and it would generate significant noise
I'm concerned that the water boiling in the reactor could be messing up the flow measurement.
Since you have close contact with Defkalion, could you ask them to validate their flow measurements when the water in the pipe is boiling? They could easily carry out internal verification quickly, without waiting for independent verification.
This inconsistency does not rule out that the device could still be generating significant amounts of energy.
Also, some of us look forward to get access to the measurement data during the demo run.
"This inconsistency does not rule out that the device could still be generating significant amounts of energy. "Delete
Maybe not but it makes it clear that the measurement system was insufficient to prove anything at all and that Defkalion was grossly negligent and incompetent to use that design when simply sparging the output stream would have done a proper job of measuring the steam enthalpy.
I bet you are not more tired of reading my "denials" than I am of seeing bad test after bad test/experiment (or no test) by Defkalion and Rossi over more than two years. Is that REALLY how a new fire and the most important discovery of the last century comes to light?
@ maryyugo (for the last time)Delete
If you want to talk about the demo, well, it's a good idea, because when you start to talk about "dozens reactors" in 2011 it seems that you indeed want to set up some more strawmen.
You are referring to a video of a turbine that in your opinion seems representing the laws of thermodynamics, instead the only data reported is the title of the video. Where is the information that the steam flow is 10kW? Where are calibrations? 10kW is the maximum power of the turbine? Was the turbine going to the maximum power? 10kW is the electric output from the generator or the steam flow? In this case do you know the conversion efficiency of the turbine? The only information I see is that the steam *seems* to be at some pressure (higher than atmospheric) but actually I can't read the value because of the poor quality of the video and maybe that was the picture of a pressure gauge of another plant, who knows? Other informations should came from the ammeter and the electricity meter, but actually are two image without context so they are meaningless even if you can read the values.
That video means absolutely nothing, but in your mind it's worth to spread it everywhere all around the web in every site where you are fighting your personal crusade.
I want to give you a gift, a valid and useful video (instead of your rubbish) for your endless discussions with your friends:
a _calibrated_ (with measurement and calculations) 0.1 l/min flow of _superheated_ (perfectly dry) steam that's about 4-4.5 kW (depending on the temperature and pressure which we don't know from the video).
A flow like that one, and even greater, could be compatible with the steam flow we've seen in Defkalion's demo since the steam has been sent deep into a narrow drain along with a flow of cold water in order to not damage the drain. The water condenses the steam, so you can't judge the real flow from the steam visible in the video. As you can read in my first comment, here I admit they did it wrong, they had to show us the steam in a better way and, unfortunately, Mats didn't think to open the tap placed under the thermocouple (that one where they measured water flow with the bucket).
Obviously we can't say that there was 27kW output because the *steam quality* is _unknown_ apart from Mats' comment that is too little and he probably took a look for a few seconds, maybe minutes, but, for sure, the power calculated by Defkalion is acceptable because it represents the more conservative value and when someone treats topic like this one, the first thing is providing _conservative_ values.
If you look at Defkalion data, they had a inner temperature (reactor's chamber) of 360°C, a temperature of the coils of 270°C (which are the temperatures of the two sides of the inner coil), so it's not so strange to think that the water circulating inside was at 150-160°C.
About the flow, they checked the flow meter several time and for different values so we have indications that it worked fine.
No indication at all that there was something wrong apart from your meaningless video of a turbine on youtube.
OK, Franco. You admit they did not do the appropriate measurement (sparging the output stream). You admit they did not use any of those many reactors with high temperature liquid cooled calorimetry circuits that they claimed to be operating TWO YEARS AGO and then you make more excuses for them.Delete
I'll look at your video but it won't matter. The one I suggested was just for the sake of discussion. I know the amount of power isn't properly measured. I am not claiming cold fusion however. I am using it to demonstrate that Defkalion's measurements are in doubt. And, as you know, superheated steam is completely transparent and can't be seen at all. Which is why, if steam is present, sparging or a heat exchanger are required to measure the steam enthalpy correctly. I'm sure you know that. So I don't see why you are ignoring it.
Bottom line: truly independent measurements are easy to come by and do not risk intellectual property. Neither Defkalion nor Rossi are willing to do that. That, and their previous history of lying about what they were doing and had, makes their current claims extremely doubtful.
That's why I don't want to answer you, because it's a completely waste of time.Delete
I admit that:
- they did the more _conservative_ measure possible. The goal was to show that the COP was greater than 1.1 and they got the goal;
- I don't know if they used those reactors you are talking about. Neither me, nor you know about that. Maybe they used, maybe they are still using them. You have no_information_at_all_ about this topic.
- for the sake of discussion you can't assert statements like "Did you see anything remotely like that in the Defkalion demo", as you did, when you even don't know what is showed in that video. That's crazy, or childish you choose;
- I showed you a real 5kW steam flow that is perfectly dry, no water drop out and the steam is transparent when it comes out of the pipe, then it condenses and became white (that's the way steam works) and that flow is perfectly compatible with Defkalion's demo.
but I already know this is all a waste of time. So I left you the last word like usually adults do with children.
Now write what you want, goodbye maryyugo aka Al Potenza aka ...
Defkalion's demo videos did NOT show the amount of steam your video did. Not that a video can measure steam!
More thoughts on faith in LENR.ReplyDelete
It seems to me that LENR cam be considered more like a religion going forward.
Let us draw another analogy between religious faith and faith in LENR.
Consider Pascal’s Wager.
Pascal's Wager is an argument in apologetic philosophy which was devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician, and physicist, Blaise Pascal. It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.).
The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):
1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
Pascal asks the reader to analyze the position of mankind, this crisis of existence and lack of complete understanding. While Mankind can discern a great deal through reason, it is also hopelessly removed from knowing everything through it. He describes Mankind as a finite being trapped within an incomprehensible infinity.
Let us apply Pascels philosophical logic(risk-reward, gain-loss tradeoff analysis) to LENR.
1. "LENR is, or LENR is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that LENR is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that LENR is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
What will it cost if LENR is not?
Arctic Methane Release Due To Climate Change Could Cost Global Economy $60 Trillion, Study Reports
This multi trillion cost estimate is far too low.
We will be facing disease, pestilence, death, and massive property loss as a species in the triple digit trillion dollar range; crop failure, mass starvation, population collapse, all the worlds coastal cities under water, constant wars over "Lebensraum," (living space), desertification… you get the picture.
If LENR is real, we avoid a near extinction event.
The object lesson to be drawn by this gain-loss tradeoff analysis… we had better get LENR working and fielded as soon as possible. Don’t let the fear engendered by the loss of pride and some insignificant pittance in money that may result in being SCAMMED stop progress in LENR development.
Axil, and what if there are 10 gods, on who do you wager then?Delete
Or stated differently, in case you can invest (or give away) 1 unit of money, should one invest in safe nuclear energy (bombardment with neutrons of non enriches fuel) solar, wind, etc, hot fusion or DGT? Or should one go with the clown?
Resources are finte
You invest in faith and commitment to that faith. You try to understand and appreciate what is at the foundation of that faith, what is at the beating heart of that faith. You make a commitment to that faith.Delete
The resources of the human heart to hope, understand and believe are infinite, it is not constrained by the limits of this world but are expanded by the breath of the human spirit.
faith looks a straneg world to describe a scientist delusion, but kuhn have explained that.Delete
A scientific community cannot practice its trade without some set of espoused beliefs (pp. 4)
*These beliefs form the foundation of the “educational initiation that prepares and licenses the student for professional practice” (pp. 5)
*The nature of the “rigorous and rigid” preparation helps ensure that these beliefs exert a “deep hold” on the student’s mind. (pp. 5)
Normal science is “predicated on the assumption that the scientific community knows what the world is like” – scientists take great pains to defend that assumption. (pp. 5)
*It is the "activity in which most scientists inevitably spend almost all their time" (pp. 5).
*It often suppresses fundamental novelties because they are necessarily subversive of its basic commitments. (pp. 5)
after reading that good summary of Kuhn work, what happened on LENR is not a surprise, but an expectation.
Peter, I'm enjoying your commentary, but wonder if you could be persuaded to expand just a bit to use a facebook page in addition to your excellent blog. Google Friend Connect seems cumbersome and limited to me. I just found and friended Mark Gibbs on facebook, feeling there are never enough supportive connections for "communicators" with independent thoughts and critical thinking. On face book, I like the small group "Cold Fusion, LENR and Andrea Rossi" but value the person to person communication possibilities as well.ReplyDelete
let us work as engineer, as entrepreneur, not as up-front skeptics.ReplyDelete
(then we would have to check ;-)
on lenr-forum "ajb" proposed an optimistic estimation of Defkalion reactor potential COP.
all is based on the assumption that Defkalion is honest, and the steam is dry as it looks.
First he use the italian language demo, who was not polluted by Argon.
He observed, keeping the present of the dry steam at 150C (the 100C stall period seems to confirm it was 1athm dry steam at 150C), a COP of 18-20.
then he observe the HV power, and imagine that with some work the reactor can work without electric heating once warm ... some work is needed, but with good design it should be possible to ensure the nice gradient required, and if not static designed, dynamic plumbing may work instead of electric heating.
assuming that only the HV is needed, he obtain a COP around 160...
I did not check the numbers, but the methodology seems good...
time to stop being negative, and accept human evidence.
"...all is based on the assumption that Defkalion is honest..."Delete
Alain, why in the world would you assume that? Did you not read and follow their forum? The one they have since deleted? They made all sorts and manner of claims on that forum and not ONE of them has come true. Honest people get truly independent tests.
I have the archive of their forum, and all I see is clone of you asking for flow calorimetry like the did in Milano, because the IR thermometry like Rossi, was not convincing you.Delete
for the rest I see people having studied the design, safety of reactors.
I judge that it is more productive to prepare to the revolution that the result les us see, than to try to prove improbable errors which would break human and physical logic.
If DGT frauded, they would have frauded in a reliable way, thus would have forbidden all measures tha may give doubt, and not proposed random tests to observers...
this the thousandth time I repeat that evidence. it seems that that logic pass over your head, like epidemiology over the head of the Pope.
"Honest people get truly independent tests."Delete
Which may explain why a 72 year old San Diego electronics executive named George Hody, who represents himself as "maryyugo", is not getting truly independent tests.
Why don't you come in one of our labs to conduct a test? It should be independent, right? Under one condition: declare in public (say here, in this blog) your name and qualifications to check that you can conduct a really independent test. Following that, then please be so kind to send us a email at email@example.com with your real name to get in contact to arrange it.
I have a better idea, John. Why don't you get Jed Rothwell to provide some independent testing and experts for you? I have contact with him and I will help him make it fool proof.Delete
If I play your game, you will just say my qualifications are not adequate. Sorry. No dice. Talk to Jed, though. I know he was willing to go on site to do a proper test of Rossi with appropriate experts and instruments. Maybe he'll do the same for you.
Let me know when you have contacted Mr. Rothwell and that you have authorized him to talk to me about the planned tests, schedule and any other particulars.
Oh... I meant to mention: the test is not independent unless the people doing the test are allowed to specify how the output power is to be measured and with exactly what method and instruments. If they choose to sparge the output stream, you must allow it.Delete
It is also not independent unless your input power source (the mains wiring) is interrupted by the experimenter using their own extension cord and that cord is instrumented with a broad band power meter. And it is not independent unless the origin of ALL wires and tubes connected to the device are fully characterized and understood by the experimenters and enough time is allowed to make sure this characterization is properly performed and recorded.
None of this, of course was the case for your demo.
Before I even discussed it with Jed, you'd have to agree to all of those conditions.
While you're here, maybe you'd care to tell all of us why you did not simply use one your existing reactors which your company claimed to have in dozen quantities since at least mid 2011. That would be the ones with built in high temperature oil, all liquid, flow calorimetry. I'd also like to know how you can feel comfortable in testing a nuclear fusion device, with limited experience, with guests present, without any radiation monitoring and without any meltdown or explosion protection for the observers.
Finally, maybe you can clear up the issue of the supposed 1.6 Tesla magnetic field allegedly present at 20 cm from the device. If this is accurate, how do you stop anything in the room which is ferromagnetic and not solidly held down, from rushing to it?
Thanks in advance for your time and answers to all these questions.
Mary, you seem quite knowledgeable on all this stuff. I am surprised you are not willing to take up this offer to do these tests.Delete
If we or Jed agree to conduct a test, we can arrange it without your interfere as we can communicate directly.
Unfortunately we can not communicate with you as you are under cover of a nick name. As far as I know we have never invited anyone under your nickname or any one else anonymous to visit us.
Still at your disposal (as above).
Personally I have no issue with Mary Yugo remaining anonymous on blogs.
What would be good is if she got in touch with you guys and coordinated things directly. She can then post results to a blog.
Mary has been screaming for an independent test for ages. She MUST take up this offer. Anything else just makes her a troll.
Hmm Interesting. as soon as an offer is on the table BOTH sceptics and believers will take notice of Hadjichristos starts to back pedal.Delete
So John what happened to the 7 independent tests you guaranteed to publish. what weasel words will you use to excuse your failing to release those supposed results?
John if you are serious I will take you up on your offer.Delete
The only proviso is as I am not personally qualified I will only act to document the tests. Instead I will bring two qualified people with me who will perform the actual tests.
The results of the tests will be made public. as you have previously promised and failed to do.
You can cover the internals of the reactor by an NDA should during the course of the test any of the internals be accidentally discovered.
What Say You?
John, I'll do it. I will volunteer.Delete
You need more people. You need (at least) one PhD level heat transfer and fluid flow specialist with high temperature and pressure boiler and nuclear reactor design experience. He would understand measurement of enthalpy and steam. Two such people would be better than one. There is a lot to watch, all at once.
You need a PhD nuclear physicist with practical experience in reactor safety otherwise, if the device is real, you're risking your life being in the same room with it.
You need a seasoned and experienced electrical engineer who fully understands power measurements. He would bring his own wiring and a broad band power meter. The others would bring their own method and devices to measure output power. It would probably *not* involve Lab View but if it did, a lot of real time calibration and reality checks would be needed. And the Lab View sensors and programming would be provided by the team to Defkalion specifications, but not by Defkalion.
At least one of the scientists would be an experienced expert in assembling laboratory equipment and designing controlled experiments.
And you would need a stage magician with experience at technology to help you look for misdirection and deception, hidden wires and conduits, and other game playing. Banacek, who works with the James Randi Foundation, would be perfect if you can get him to participate.
Everyone would have to have *no* previous experience approving cold fusion devices or related tests. Everyone would have to have a high index of suspicion.
I predict nothing like this proposed testing will ever happen with Defkalion... or Rossi.
If Defkalion are honest, they will also restore their deleted forum and they will answer some simple direct polite questions like the ones I asked Mr. Hadjichristos in this message string.
Mary to JohnDelete
"Not tonight please John, please ! - I just this moment developed a crushing headache"
To be blunt Roger. John has enough fanboys. he needs someone who will be critical and not afraid to be critical.Delete
MY (AL) Two would be fine plus me. I have no intention of discovering the exact mechanism. I am only concerned in ensuring the testing procedure is above board.
Of course we would need a DGT technician to set up the test. Other than that we would supply our own calibrated equipment to do all the input and output. Flow calorimetry would be simple water in water out no steam. There would be two runs one with an uncharged reactor one with a charged reactor.
The above is off the top of my head I would defer to the experts on the exact setup. It could be discussed well beforehand so that both believers and non believers are happy with the setup.
Though I doubt JH will even bother responding. He has proven in the past not to be interested in validating tests.
IMHO his request for your details is no more than a smokescreen so that he can threaten you with a lawsuit.
What he fails to realise is it would make no difference. For every MY there is 100 waiting in the wings, we can all smell a scam from a mile or indeed half a world away.
"Other than that we would supply our own calibrated equipment to do all the input and output. Flow calorimetry would be simple water in water out no steam."Delete
Sorry Chris, let me be the Devil's advocate. They would probably tell you they need a higher temperature than boiling water, probably the so-called "Debye" temperature, for the reactor to work. If they use water, that means steam.
This sort of error is what I mean by YOU NEED A HEAT TRANSFER AND FLUID FLOW EXPERT WHO KNOWS REACTOR DESIGNS, HEAT EXCHANGERS, COOLANT CIRCUITS and THE LIKE. This is doable if, as is very improbable, Defkalion actually allows it. But you'd be arriving after more than EIGHT dismal FAILURES to insist on proper testing for Rossi and little criticism from enthusiasts for the current horribly deficient demonstration by Defkalion. Hear any participants from ICCF18 complain? They should!
Anyway, not getting yourself bamboozled and flummoxed isn't as easy as you think. What happened to Levi, Essen, Kullander and Lewan should give you some pause. Overconfidence is not the right approach.
Of course, Defkalion claimed high temperature oils were used two years ago. Maybe they can locate those reactors in one of their vast factories somehow? You think so?
I agree which is why I said I would confer with experts beforehand.Delete
Without knowing the exact requirements any speculation on our behalf is pointless. Defkalion would need to specify exactly what the limitations are and the test would be designed around that.
Oh and by the way the magicians job. That's one for me. Not a seasoned professional but a keen amateur. :)
As far as dangerous radiation is concerned I will trust DGT know their stuff and no danger is present.
Mary Yugo, STFU and get your fat ass down to DGT and do the testing. Everything else you say is irrelevant.Delete
single phase calorimetry is not possible with that device which need higher temperature.Delete
If you had read the Nelson test you will know it.
The MFMP would love to do a test on one of your devices. Do you make them the same offer you made to MY? Perhaps a cooperation between the MY team and MFMP is possible in case both want to do a test.
Don't be fooled Hadjichristos never ever for a second offered to let anyone test his sham deviceDelete
This is nothing but a transparent ploy. Anybody offering to be a tester will be sadly disappointed. I never for a second thought it would be taken up.
Your bantering on test protocols disappointed me MY as you already knew this was a not an offer for a test.
I am so sad to learn that Alex is very ill.
Poli kronia, dear Alex.
This comment has been removed by the author.ReplyDelete
I agree, Jed is an excellent suggestion.ReplyDelete
John - if you are actually serious about your proposal, you can not deny that Jed is both impartial and qualified to do this and that you will accept him to come to your lab with his own testing equipment (first inspected by you), videotape, and do testing with sufficient time.
However, like MY, I question your sincerity here.
I really don't think Jed is a good idea. Nothing by the way against Jed. To the contrary, I respect him for his role in supporting LENR.Delete
But he does believe in LENR, and that is where the problem lies.
John Hadjichristos, by my reading, was inviting the opposition, as represented by MY, to come and evaluate the hyperion.
Very honest gesture on his (Johns) part by the way, and it gives me that much more confidence that DGT is not a scam. Convince the most vocal critic and acceptance follows. Not that simple if you ask me, but a good start.
But substituting Jed for MY, who is clearly a friendly, would accomplish absolutely nothing IMO. If that were to happen, the skeptics would be no more convinced of the results then they were by the "magnificent 7" that tested Rossis ecat recently, and I suspect MY would be leading the charge... having totally missed the hypocrisy.
Back then to square one, having accomplished nothing other then to inflate MYs already inflated ego.
Caution... don't try and befriend a snake.
Actually Jed is a good idea. If he applies the same diligence to this that he applied to Rossi. And that would mean assembling a team of genuine heat transfer, fluid flow and electrical engineering experts. Of course, they need to be real independent experts. It can't be the usual suspects from the Vortex email list and it can't be people like McKubre and other proponents of LENR who have already demonstrated their gullibility.Delete
At least I would hope he would do that. And in that instance, I'd be happy to help him out. But don't worry. I don't think Defkalion will allow that approach any more than Rossi did.
Jed is fine. He doesn't need any experts with him, he just needs time and money to fly him out / pay for his hotels / etc.Delete
If the offer was sincere, he'd take someone in Yugo's stead.
Mary Yugo, HD from wavewatching has offered to go in your stead. That'll work.
Substitute Matts Lewan name for Jed Rothwells in your post, and tell us if there would be any difference in your opinion?Delete
Both Jed and Matts could be described as supportive of LENR.... Believers for sure. For the record, you absolutely rail against "believers" everywhere... don't try and deny that.
Also, again for the record, you (MY), have tirelessly denigrated Matts Lewan for his incompetence in evaluating Rossis ecat 2 1/2 years ago, and now DGT recently.
You often stated his (Matts) believer status in justification of your rants, and disqualified anything he observed because of that.
Matts probably has better quals then Jed... although I can't say for sure. But either way, I find it hard to believe your sincerity in what you propose to John.
Your history simply doesn't support trust... sorry.
"Jed is fine. He doesn't need any experts with him..."Delete
With all due respect, he's not and he does. If this is a scam, it is a sophisticated one and is not easily revealed. You have to be capable, experienced, and motivated and you need the background in experimental design, boiler design and physics, heat transfer and fluid flow, and of course, unless you want to be fried, reactor safety. You also need the magician. Scientists are most often very easily deceived. They rarely even look for deception and when they do, it's a half hearted effort... example: Rossi and the Magnificent Seven (blind mice).
"Mary Yugo, HD from wavewatching has offered to go in your stead.
That's nice but heat transfer and fluid flow are very specialized and complicated areas. So is electrical engineering. If he has the practical experience (it takes decades) in all those fields and he's an accomplished sleight of hand artist as well, then he's the one.
Otherwise, not so much.
Yugo, you are an idiot. The reported COP is far too high to be a magicians trick.Delete
All you need is a reasonable test protocol and like you said, interrupt the power supply with a broad band meter, and time.
If it's a magicians trick, hell, that magicians trick would be amazing enough..
I think we should also be allowed to open the reactor. They have already shown us what's inside, so what's the harm..Delete
But, Yugo, look if you have a set of your so called experts ready to go, fine, name them and let's see if we can get them to go.Delete
But you don't. You're all talk.
(that was me, btw, for all that matters)ReplyDelete
"As far as I know we have never invited anyone under your nickname or any one else anonymous to visit us."ReplyDelete
How soon we forget. Fortunately someone has a copy of the forum so if it matters to anyone, I will try to locate the post. Problem is, it's tedious.
"Still at your disposal (as above)."
Perhaps you are. Problem is, I don't believe that the offer is genuine. Maybe it makes sense to you to invite someone who you think is an internet troll to test what may be the best invention/discovery of a century. In my opinion, no legitimate company with a legitimate discovery would offer that. Frankly, from your viewpoint, and by any reasonable criteria, the offer is RIDICULOUS! Think about it. You can get a test from anywhere and you choose me? I'm ROTFWL!
In reality, if you really wanted an independent test, you'd get it from a large university department of physics (for example UCLA, Oxford, Cambridge) or a large national lab (SANDIA, ORNL, CERN and so on). No, you don't really want a test and you have no intention of letting me do a test. You're just "yanking my chain" and it won't work.
I notice you did not respond to my reasonable and polite questions. Not to any one of them. Why is that, please?
"You can get a test from anywhere and you choose me?"Delete
Don't even think about trying to twist this around!
On the channels currently following this development you are a superstar! Everyone reading blogs, news articles and forum posts on DGT knows who you are and your "expert" opinion. In fact, you are the fiercest, most persistence critic of Rossi and DGT that i can possibly think of. So this invitation makes PERFECT sense.
Here is your chance to prove to the world that you were right all along. If you decline, you have officially proved yourself to be nothing more than a troll. And i will personally remind you of this everywhere you go from now on.
So whats it gonna be?
Nah, yugo doesn't have to go. And frankly, I wouldn't care if he was convinced. TBH he certainly hasn't showed to be qualified to do independent testing.Delete
I think what we need is someone to go to the labs, with an agreed upon test protocol before hand, with their own test equipment and time, and we should be good to go.
Open Science at its best. I'm sure the MFMP guys could help out with the test protocol.
Come on, this would be historical...
Eric, how many times do I have to tell you? They made a similar offer two years ago and it had to be a sham because no tests by anyone have been published since unless you count the lame demo just now and Nelson's bad act a while back.Delete
It's not a real offer. Gee, man, you must be a TERRIBLE poker player!
When did you get an offer like this directly from John Hadjichristos? It never happened.Delete
The rest of your comment are just arrogant presumptions and insults.
This sure look like a real offer to me, and if you do not take it you have officialy outed your intentions to trolling for everyone to see.
Eric, did you follow Defkalion's old forum? The one they DELETED leaving no trace? I most certainly did get such an invitation on their forum and IIRC, I was not the only one. If I can find the actual message, I will post it. I don't know if Hadjichristos was the forum person back then. He does seem to have the same sarcastic and gamy style and like then, he doesn't answer reasonable questions.Delete
Here is the old DGT forum:
Download and build your case. We await.
Thanks, Shane. I can't promise I'll find it but if it's not too time consuming, I will look.Delete
but but but but but..Delete
If maryyugo is actually George Hody, a San Diego caliometer purveyor who enjoys Hoby cats, plus the premier critic in the known universe of every LENR experiement ever revealed (well, there's SK), he/she IS actually qualified as a Hyperion test reviewer. And what better way to reveal the nefarious machinations of DFK than to ACCEPT the offer, calling their bluff, and creating a card that he/she can forever lay down in every LENR-related blog on the planet. So, by spurning this invitation, it must be, it must be, it must be...by George! It is! It must be the he/she has an even deeper stratagem for ensuring that Truth, Science and Progress will be defended against the forces of ... well, not actually darkness, so much as the "Dark Fire". Ah, what mysterious brilliance! Let the trembling of the false believers begin!
The problem is hard to solve.Delete
If the test is done, like Neson test behind closed doors, the skeptic won't accept anything.
If done by a believers like jed it will be rejected.
If done by someone having an open mind on LENR like matts, it will be rejected for same reason.
If done with video, the image will be analysed by people mixing incompetence and lack of information, translating their ignorance into evidence of fraud.
If the setup is simple, it will be like here, talke as evidence of incompetence and fraud.
if the setup is complex , they will imagine rabbits in the hat, and say it is fraud.
if it run a turbine, they will say there are rabbots hidden.
if propelling a car or a plane,; they will say hidden fuel.
they have asked for simpler setup like that demo, and today they moan it was too simple.
they asked for water, they moan for water.
that asked for flow calorimetry, they moane against
they moaned for steam, defkalion give them to skeptics, they moan...
it is psychiatry.
I think we should stop arguing.
I forgot to say that if we invite skeptics, they will first refuse, then like the italian Cicaps flee, and if anyway making the test, eternally call for more tests, more data, ...Delete
like a guy in Death Row moaning on his last meal ...
what is the motivation of skeptics to know the truth ?
None, and that is the problems.
put an entrepreneur, ask him to put a check of 1 year of his income in the balance.
make him fund and do a test.
if he buys a share/license of Defkalion , you know the result.
the problem is that no entrepreneur will do that in public.
quotes from maryyugo/George Hody within this thread:ReplyDelete
"Defkalion was grossly negligent and incompetent to use that design"
"I notice you did not respond to my reasonable and polite questions"
Perhaps truthfulness and consistency are only a requirements for other people...
Maybe MY would like to go as observer while my team - Erth-Tec Incompetents - goes to investigate?ReplyDelete
The only reason JH is making this suggestion is in order to learn MY's real name, and then to take legal action.ReplyDelete
A real man would go to an accredited independent laboratory. Do not hold your breath.
Which laboratory? Who's going to do this? Do you have a phone number? A link?Delete
Who are they imaginary ****ing testers you guys keep bringing up?? I want to call them!
That's the problem - no lab has been commissioned by Hadjichristos, and even if this had been done, there is no information about it available publicly. NIST, ORNL, UCLA,...there are umpteen possibilities.Delete
So by all means, try and call an imaginary number (a mathematician or an EE will doubtless answer).
Too funny. All talk and no action, eh Mary? ROTFLMAO!ReplyDelete
loser – n. eg. Mary Yugo. A person who has fallen off the social ladder, climbed down the social ladder, jumped off the social ladder, or just never bothered to climb the social ladder in the first place. Upon arrival on the ground, losers begin to befriend fellow groundlings and realize how much fun a person can have when gravity isn’t an issue. It is perfectly acceptable to insult losers, because they have nowhere to fall to and it won’t hurt much. They will end up laughing about it later, anyways. Every now and then, a loser will glance at the top of the social ladder, but it is never long before they realize how pointless and stupid the top of the ladder is.ReplyDelete
Dedicated to MY. LOL. I'm loving this!ReplyDelete
don't be nasty with losers, they are in charge to rewrite the history that the garage inventors and practiotioners have created.Delete
2014, a pioneer calle Mary Yogo (anonymized to prevend violence from the free energy fanatics) discovered that Free Energy community was hiding an interesting technology.
The fringe electro-chemist Fleischmann and his damned soul, Pons, tried to hide that reality by loose experiments, ridiculing all the physicist community.
Helped by other conspirators from all the planet, and by the blooming Internet, thet maintaine the secret, preventing serious researchers to div into that powerful technology.
hopefully in 2015, after discioveries by Mary Yugo, Huzenga, Taubes, the lab of MIT, Caltech and harwel have proven that Nickel Hydrogen reaction pan produce hert at industrial revel.
John Hadjicristos, Andrea Rossi, Alexandros Xanthouls, Fancesco Calani have been jailed for conspiracy of fraud.
all the internet sites linked to that gigantic 25years frud have been close and the documents destroyed to avoid other manipulation of innocent investors.
... maybe exaggerated. ;-)
that one is more realistic
This is what a quick search in the forums backup spat out...ReplyDelete
Author: maryyugo [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:27 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Defkalion GT announcement (10/10/2011)
I can't understand why you persist with posting this stuff here. DGT have already agreed to take talks with you offline!
Did you make contact with DGT like they asked you to? This is a great opportunity for you to get to the bottom of what's going on.
Really? A good opportunity? Let's review, shall we?
- Defkalion has never shown even an image of a product
- Defkalion has never shown a production line or a laboratory
- Nobody who has ever visited Defkalion has reported that they are in fact making any product or have any product
- Rossi *and* Stremmenos have both said Defkalion has no technology
- A Greek newspaper printed a story which reports that a member of Parliament inquired of the Greek authorities about Defkalion's applications for permits to sell Hyperion devices. He was told no such applications exist or were received. The member's name was specified in the article and he was specifically quoted.
- I asked Defkalion to put "us" (anyone who can report reliably) in touch with the relevant Greek regulatory authorities-- no reply.
-- I asked when we can expect the authorizations previously promised for fourth quarter 2011 -- no reply.
- I asked to be put in touch with anyone reliable and credible who could vouch for that they have a product -- no reply.
- I asked to see a copy of the NDA I would be required to sign before having talks of seeing anything of theirs -- no reply.
- I provided a trusted intermediary person whom Defkalion knows is a real person so they don't have to deal with my pseudonym and unknown identity -- they did respond but not with specifics of any useful sort.
And the ball is in my corner? How does that work exactly?
Perhaps the MFMP can do the test.ReplyDelete
I apologize -for two days, I had no Internet connection due to moving in a flat near to my grandchildren.
The worst surprise I had was to see that completely irrationally
and unexpectedly, our very vocal and aggressive Mary Yugo does
not accepted the opportunity to use her skills in testing the Hyperions. Unbelievable to somebody who is speaking honestly
what he/she thinks.
I am also surprised that our good resident LENR+ devices killer has received moderate and much too polite answers in contrst with the viciousness and even sadism of her destructive messages.
I am not polite this time, Mary if you are competent accept this offer; if you are not then please shut up and spread you intellectual venom in other places.
You recommend a test done by the well known CF believer Jed Rothwell who thinks the E cat work and the Hyperion works.
No problem that this is dirty trick but it is also very cheap and naive.
I give you 48 hours to change your mind; if not, you will enter the history of LENR as an very anonymous ill-willed coward and a
toothless tigress of the sort the Natta Indians call a
SeggFej. You have plenty of time, child!
If mary refuses to accept this offer we can at this point safely conclude that her intentions are to troll and spread fear, uncertainty and doubt on every channel covering this story. Including your excellent blog. Perhaps it is time to ban her?
Just a suggestion.
Well, MR seems to want to remain anonymous. Why shouldn't she? Her identity is of no consequence for the validity of the DGT device. In case DGT extents their invitation to the general public this challenge will be answered. And I suspect DGT to back down at some point.Delete
Sure Eric. Banning me will add confidence that Defkalion's claim are real, right? That's how your fantasy world works?Delete
Hadjichristos (or someone like him at Defkalion) said this in 2011 on their forum:Delete
“Defkalion has held direct business discussions with 62 interested companies who visited our offices in Greece and witnessed our work. Small industry and large energy players internationally were all impressed by our progress in technology and engineering. More are still coming.”
FROM the archive provided by ShaneD:
And currently they claim 1300 major companies or governments are examining their product. And today they need me, whom they perceive as a destructive internet troll, to test Hyperion? And you believe it’s a real offer? And you think Hyperion is a high power table top fusion reactor — the most important invention of the previous century? REALLY?!?!
Like I said to Soo in another forum, WOW! Really WOW! I knew believers were gullible but THIS gullible? I am amazed.
I'LL TEST IT FOR YOUReplyDelete
It’s a water heater right?
Take your Ecat or your Hyperion or whatever.
If it needs electricity to run it then supply that energy (and the power to run test equipment and strange blue boxes) via a clearly observable mains extension cable.
NO OTHER POWER SOCKETS TO BE USED.
Circulate the water through an ordinary electric water heater tank of known volume (standard 300 Litre tank would be fine).
Measure the Kw-hours used PROPERLY.
Measure the temperature rise.
Perform simple calculation to determine the energy needed to heat the water in Kw-hours
As a cross check you could then start again with the same tank and same starting temperature and use the electric element to provide the same number of Kw-hours.
Naturally you'll have to pay my air fare and expenses but if I give it the Keef tick of approval you'll be laughing all the way to the bank!
MY it is very simple put up or shut up!ReplyDelete
"I am not polite this time, Mary if you are competent accept this offer; if you are not then please shut up and spread you intellectual venom in other places."ReplyDelete
Hadjichristos's offer is a cheap trick, Peter. Don't you see that? He has no intention of allowing me to see or test anything. He is just trying to toy with me.
An anonymous post above summarizes that interaction. They had been claiming all sorts of things back in 2011. I had been asking them to prove their claims. They couldn't do it then and they won't do it now.
Defkalion tried the same thing by inviting me to contact them privately with the promise they would answer my questions if only I would identify myself. I don't know who wrote the messages because they didn't identify themselves... oh look! They remained ANONYMOUS!
"You recommend a test done by the well known CF believer Jed Rothwell who thinks the E cat work and the Hyperion works."
Yes Peter. In 2011, Jed and I were in contact about how to best test Rossi. Jed had the right ideas. He was going to contact some experts. Rossi did not allow the tests.
I also asked Jed to help me contact Defkalion in 2011. They refused to give him the information I asked for. It's all in the deleted forum which ShaneD has now made available. I suggest you read it. In that message string, Jed was not named. But he was the contact I alluded to.
No trick from Yiannis, just the system is so reliable that even a manical enemy of it will find no errors; it is very powerful
You can see it with your own eyes and verify it.
Cheap trick is compromising Jed trying to suggest us he is your friend or he obeys your orders.
You again forget it is now 2013, not 2011.
Noblesse oblige; applied to you, this means you have to accept
this offer otherwise your words are only aquaTofanized bla-bla.
OK Peter. You think "Yiannis" had 62 companies looking at Hyperion in 2011 and now has 1300 to deal with and he has time for me to run a test. You really believe that? And none of those 1300 companies is willing to come forward and present their results?Delete
Well, Peter, for what it's worth, I am in contact with three different people, all qualified, not Jed Rothwell, who have expressed an interest in contacting Defkalion for me, using their real names. If they can work out a proper protocol, I will join them and reveal my identity when the test schedule is all worked out and published so that Defkalion can not back out.
Of course, I predict that won't happen.
You can read my suggested preliminary test protocol here:
You'll notice that it corrects the obvious errors and omissions of the recent ICCF18 "demonstration".
While we're waiting for all the talks to take place, you may enjoy downloading and reading the deleted forum. It's quite revealing and contains many equivocations, errors, and, in my opinion, outright lies. Bon appetit, Peter.
Mary Yugo, so jump on their offer and implement/design the test yourself with their cooperation. Now it is your chance to shine.Delete
It seems Peter you are as duped as many others.Delete
Have you tested the hyperion? No therefore you cannot make any claims to whether it is reliable or not or even that it works as claimed.
Don't you find it a little odd that a company who was contracted to provide the plumbing to Ross's evolutionary product managed to invent a different one within a few months when most at the ICCF can barely manage a few watts of purported OU after 24+ years of trying.
Why do you ignore this stark fact?
As I always say..
"Wishing it was so doesn't make it so".
Because I know the facts- in their evolution.Delete
What facts are you referring to that we are not all privy too?
Claiming you know facts is nice but pretty meaningless.
We have all watched DGT evolve, But perhaps without the pleasure of rose coloured glasses.
If there are facts as you call them that are not public, why aren't they?
It's a school kid taunt to say "I know something you don't know"
Sorry for you Chris,Delete
I am more than curious, Iwant to help those who are
able to convert LENR in a technology. Discussing with
the DGT people I have discovered their abilities in science, technology, management and business. I wrote about this on my blog.
The emphasis is not only on facts it is on evolution;
they have developed very fast- now are at Hyperion model 6, the performances have increased and extremely difficult technical problems have been resolved step by step. Do you really understand for example their ICF-17 presentation where they give perhaps too much information? In the spirit of "make hydrogen more reactive and nickel more receptive" - this is a working
strategy, a leit-motif for advancement.
Plus, Yiannis Hadjichristos is one of the very rare individuals in the field who is apt in complexity theory
and systems thinking- essential for development of such a very new technology and has helpers who are excellent in
all the branches of physics plus others specialized in
tough problems of materials science.
I have no idea how carefully have you watched them evolve
have no idea if you have experience in leading similar
(as extent) R&D projects)But please ask what you want to know and I will be happy to answer.
What you say about rosy glasses is naive and inspired by Koalemos I have no reasons to commit the capital sin of wishful thinking- positive variant. Beware of he negative variant, dear and hopefully not only curious friend!
I don't know why you are sorry for me. My name is my nature. While I am curious I am not gullible.Delete
I have watched them evolve too, but I don't see any advancement, more of a devolution.
You say you have watched them evolve. They have become better at what they do. But you have provided no validation of what they claim to do, You yourself obviously have no proof.
I will ask some simple questions ones which DGT themselves refused to answer.
DGT as you know was put together not to create this technology but to create the plumbing for Rossi's Ecat.
How did they create in a few months what no-one else this side of Rossi has claimed? Even he is not so stupid as to claim the impossible in such a short time frame. dont forget it happened after they claimed to have seen the insides to Rossi's reactor.
Where in that evolution did all the scientists go (48 if I recall)?
Explain to me exactly why DGT will not do a genuine test using genuine third party testers and genuine lab rated test equipment. Even Rossi has gotten better at that while DGT just stagnate.
Why did DGT claim to have 7 prominent organisations test their equipment last year. Absolutely guarantee to release the results. Then close the forums and move to another country releasing only the lame "Nelson report" and a white paper where they couldnt even get the numbering of the tests in the right order. (they showed transmutations occuring before the test was even run). That was the iccf-17 report.
I think the only evolution you have witnessed is them getting better at pulling the wool over the eyes of people just like you.
It would appear to me that you and the other believers are afraid to ask the hard questions. You are afraid to ask yourselves the hard questions.
While you may not want to believe it we all want LENR to be true, even Mary Y. Wanting something to be true does not mean we accept any claim by any person that comes along singing eureka. But ask your self why do we the critics even bother? Its because while we think Rossi and DGT are outright criminals (I'll stand by that JH) we would love nothing better than to see an energy revolution. My house is lined with solar panels for a reason.
The scientific method has developed over centuries for a reason, even those who make huge advances in science have to submit to it lest they fall prey to simple errors in measurement or judgement. Yet you, I believe a former industrial chemist, have cast that aside in your zeal. That I find very sad, that I find pitiful.
People like you. The late Focardi, Levi, Essen etc all have the opportunity to demand rigorous scientific testing, but instead go meekly about proclaiming a revolution. It's because of people like you that scammers exist today, without truly knowing what you are supporting you lend your weight. People like DGT rely on people like you. You trot out their lines on cue like puppets.
If you want the world to get on board and this sort of technolgy to find its place in history you need to stand up and be counted. By that I dont mean continue to suck up to DGT, but instead stand up to them and demand they provide unequivocal proof. Not just "DGT/Rossi says".
If DGT or Rossi provided just one undeniable and unequivocal test that proved their claims. The world would beat a path to their door. Remember the days of P&F. That world wide excitement. I certainly do.
If DGT or Rossi have what they claim and as YOU say "the system is so reliable" then no one would be able to dispute it. LENR would have arrived. But its not is it, and you are aware of that because in the end you arent exactly a fool are you.
So far you yourself have only provided words, Nothing of meaning and nothing of substance. Your words and patronising pity are as hollow as DGT's claims.
A good surgeon, a good psychiatrist and a good blogger-
all these arfe able to identify a lost case i.e. somebody who cannot be saved, cannot be brought to normality or cannot participate in a logical dialogue.I have categorized you in this last category. I am old and busy and have no ime to waste with you. You live in a memcracy
See you next time when DGT goes commecial. If it does not goe then I will not see you again or more. A rivederci!
Hey Peter Charlie Tapp here, I will go instead if she won't email me charlie_tapp @fmi.com fmi is one of the biggest copper miners in the world I am sure they would be interested if I could make copper out of a little bit of nickel and some h2! Assuming the transmutation produces it that's what I would look for not copReplyDelete
With nickel currently at twice the price of copper, that's a rather odd statement.Delete
isnt it a wast product dont realy know how much is in there from such a small amount of nickel but you could still get rid of it couldnt you? and if everything goes to lenr wouldnt there be alot of it? what are you going to do throw it away?Delete
Can you give us an estimation on the cost of energy needed to extract Cu from the crust?
Chile, one of the biggest Cu producers, need something around 16GW of power to mine. If this cost drop down with this technology, say by a factor of 90%, Cu prices go down also and energy is reserved for other needs of the society such as water desalination etc
I think consequences and financial impacts will not come from the transmutations per se (out of possible applications such as the recent NRL patent on radio waste treatment) as you claim.
No one knows more about testing protocols than Mary Yugo. This person should at least be present and ask questions/record answers during the test. It is very easy to criticize others by the means of the Internet. But now, its Mary Yugo's chance to shine.ReplyDelete
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ReplyDelete
Why waste your time discussing testing from Jed or MFMP or anyone else.ReplyDelete
JH was not actually offering a test. it was a sham put on for a different reason.
Don't be fooled by this pedlar of dreams.
Bottom line - MaryYugo could (in her parlance) call their bluff.ReplyDelete
But one reasonable conclusion is Mary won't because maybe Mary can't. ?
I’ve just been informed by one of the people I asked to join me in a possible experiment with Defkalion, that he emailed Hadjichristos last night from his real email address. He outlined his considerable qualifications in the email.
You may want to ask Hadjichristos what he plans to do about it. If a test were to take place involving my colleague, I would participate in designing and executing it. On site.
I guess the ball is now in Hadjichritos's corner, hey Peter?
It was a personal invitation. Is somebody helping you to write your killer comments?
Please write me to firstname.lastname@example.org who ia your potentilal associate, and if you wish, who you are beyond your credentials
sent me by a friend. It is not usual to change the rules of a game, any way if he is the M7 of the industrial espionage I think
he has to be rejected, if say, he D.H with a good reputation
there are chances that will not be solitary- the management of DGT decides. I want to do the preliminary expert web search re "him".
Let's see what Hadjichristos wants to do about my colleague's qualified and legitimate offer. As I said, I would participate in the actual test were it ever to take place. If Hadjichristos agrees to a test, I will be happy to contact you.
M7 industrial espionage? You've been watching too many grade C movies, Peter.
I am coming from the industry and I have seen many things;
I have not looked to any movies. However I been responsible
for some great project and extended tests, had you?
Do not be silly, the game with you starts when you say who you are, no game with nobodies or zombies.
In this stage you have to do it- tell it to Yiannis and to me in this stage we will not reveal your identity. What do you have to hide and why? Normsl people are on LinkedIn and other networks, logically only people to have something to hide use nicknames. There are positive and negative credentials and deeds too, dear Mary!
"However I been responsibleDelete
for some great project and extended tests, had you? "
Yes, Peter, I have. When the situation with Defkalion and Rossi becomes clear, I will tell you more about my projects via private email.
For the moment, "Yannis" will have to content himself with speaking to Henning Dekant and another interested party who has contacted him via email already but who has not received a reply. Perhaps there is a better email address than email@example.com ?
If so, whoever wishes can email it to me at maryyugo [at] yahoo [dot] com or to Henning. He will post his address if he wishes to.
We offered you what you are asking two years now under the condition to state in public your name and qualifications, that anyone can cross check, proving that you are able to conduct a test. There is a very reasonable reason for this prerequisite: you are going to publish the result of such test were ever you want, right? Signing under what name dear MaryYugo? With a nickname that everyone can use claiming that has conducted a test? This gives no credit either to us or to your test.
So please stop just making noise around, accept the proposal and then contact us directly using your real name to arrange the test protocol and the rest of the details.
Sure, sure. I accept the proposal except that I will reveal my name when I am ready to. It will be before any test takes place.
In the meantime, I will arrange to have two colleagues contact you by email to make the arrangements. If a paper results, their names will be on it along with mine. And both are eminently qualified and each has a PhD in physics. One is a professor emeritus at a well know university.
One will be visiting the Vancouver area soon and can drop by your offices so you can personally verify his "bona fides". I have asked him to contact you for an appointment as soon as he knows his schedule.
Of course, I think you are just playing a game. I don't think you intend to ever allow a truly independent test of the Hyperion. I think you also know as well as I do why that is.
I also notice that you failed to answer ANY of the simple questions I asked you in previous post. Why is that? Even the very patient and overly polite people on the Vortex email list want to know.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong about your product. But I am not going to play any identity games by your rules and I am not going to do any test by your protocols. With all due respect to Mats Lewan's initiative and energy, please don't confuse me with him!
If you still want me to do the tests, talk to my colleagues. Once the test schedule and method are setup, I promise to participate on site and we will get acquainted. I am pretty sure you will never let that happen.
@Mary, just a small correction, my physics degree was conferred by the University of Heidelberg before Germany brought their academic degrees more in line with the American system of Bachelor, Master and PhD I am holding what is called Dipl. Phys. (a perfectly fine title that also Einstein held when he worked in the Bern patent office :-)Delete
It is roughly equivalent to a M. Sc. degree in physics.
@John Hadjichristos, I'd be delighted to stop by your office and discuss this in person when I am in Vancouver.
Please expect communications from Dr. Henning Dekant. This is posted with his knowledge and full approval. He would be the first member of our possible team to visit you in Vancouver to discuss plans for an independent test.
Mary, I don't hold a Ph.D. but only the equivalent to a M.Sc.Delete
In Germany it'll be fraudulent if I put a Dr. in front of my name, but I can be listed as Dipl. Phys. Henning Dekant in a telephone book :-)
You are an excellent choice my friend.
Sorry, that was entirely my error.Delete
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ReplyDelete
If dr Henning or anyone else wish to contact us, this is OK as long as real names and data are in use, so these can be cross checked.ReplyDelete
Does dr Henning knows the person or persons using the nickname MaryYugo to get involved with in a test or any other common activity? If yes, please provide his/her data in public before any reference during any future communication with our company.
@John Hadjichristos, I don't know more about Mary's real identity than the ample speculations that his behaviour engendered in various web forums.Delete
It's up to him to share this information. But certainly he would have to come clean if he wanted to attend any test. In my opinion a test protocol should capture the identity of all individuals present with sign-off when the various test stages have been completed. If somebody is not prepared to put their name on such a document there is no point to have this person attend. My understanding is that Mary would be willing to do so if test preparations were to advance to the point of coordinating logistics.
P.S.: I don't hold a doctorate so please neither a small nor big caps dr in front of my name. It's either Dipl. Phys. Dekant or H. Dekant, M.Sc. (Not that I really care either way, I don't tend to advertise my degrees :-) Anyhow, if required I of course have certified and translated copies of my M.Sc. degree).
Henning is correct. For the fourth time: I said I would reveal my identity before any test took place. But not before there was agreement about the composition of the team who would do the test and exactly what the test would consist of (materials and methods, choice of instruments, and a detailed protocol).Delete
Apparently John Hadjichristos doesn't want to do it that way which is why I believe that he is not sincere.
As we said to Peter some 15-16 months ago "if MaryYugos was not there, we would have to "invent" a similar persona maintaining reasonable doubts around our technology aka providing us with a very low cost security policy for our company and its officers".
For now on dear MaryYugo, we can not take advantage of your hard efforts any more, for which we are thankful. Our proposal is honest and sincere as far as your past hard activity provide us the opportunity of a very low budget advertisement of our company, even limited to the few people following this new rising technology through the internet. So I ask you for one last time to accept our offer.
Please remember that we will allow you to entry a private company's lab to conduct a test, accompanied by anyone that wish to accept creditability and accountability of actions, and not to a playground with an anonymous entry ticket. So you have to follow our simple rule on non anonymity to conduct an independent test as you wish, which is of our interest as above.
I fully agree with you that if you got the goods, MY as been an asset for you. Anyhow we all would like this to be a real technology and a cool way to show it is to make MY and friend agree on it, whatever words that have been shouted in the past (after all it will be you who would laugh all the way to the bank, right!) So communicate and take it slow and probably you will work out something. What makes me sit on the fence is that it is unclear how well you have protected your IP, and would be willing to start a technology run by conducting a MY water proof test, any general comments on that?Delete
"So I ask you for one last time to accept our offer. "
You didn't make an offer. If I understood you, which is difficult because of your opaque writing style, you asked me for identification and credentials and you said that these would need to be approved before the test. Because any test would be contingent on your approval of credentials and protocols and because you could withhold that approval for any arbitrary reason, there is no reason for me to reveal anything without reasonable assurance that you really want a test.
To that end, I agreed to provide what you wanted before the test, but only if we could first agree on exactly how the test was to be done and who would join me in doing it. I further offered you direct contact with two qualified and identified individuals who would represent my interest in the preliminary discussions. Somehow that is not enough for you. I have no idea why because you didn't explain it.
I am confident that you never wanted a test. Either you would not approve my credentials and those of the others or you would find some way to weasel out of a proper test protocol. I have no interest in playing that game or the one you played with the unfortunate Mats Lewan.
Before a test, I'd also have needed answers to my questions about your previous claims. They bear on the issues of designing a test. If you were not, as I suspect, lying blatantly about having a liquid flow calorimeter system (back in mid 2011), then the test would be extremely simple to perform by using such a system. I don't expect a reply from you on that issue either. But if you really had such a system, there would have been no reason to hide it from Lewan.
The idea that you want *me* to cast doubt on your own claims while you say that dozens or hundreds of companies have already checked and approved your "technology" is ludicrous. Anyone who believes that is a complete fool.
"Does dr Henning knows the person or persons using the nickname MaryYugo to get involved with in a test or any other common activity? If yes, please provide his/her data in public before any reference during any future communication with our company."
Neither Henning Dekant nor the physics professor who contacted you by email will reveal my identity. I have no idea how or why you think this sort of silly distraction and deception benefits you. No serious company with real cold fusion reactors would be involved in such nonsense.
I am quite certain no test will take place and that is entirely because you do not want one. You never wanted one. In two and a half years of making extravagant claims and presumably soliciting and accepting money from investors, you have never publicly shown a single credible test.
In fact, that does nothing for your security or safety because anyone really wanting to harm you could obtain the truth about your claims. It strongly suggests that you have no working reactor and never have had one.
I am quite convinced that, back in 2011, you designed some reactor plumbing and you expected Rossi to provide the interior "guts" of the machine. Rossi did not do that, probably because he also has only grandiose claims and no working reactor.
I am not sure how you expect your adventure to end. I seriously doubt that every cold grandmother will get her Defkalion heater for next winter!
I will answer first-becaus e this is my Blog nobody has to collaborate and trustin a ghost, zombie or person with no identity and no responsibility. After the test you can say "they have not convinced me" and go away.Delete
This message of yours is dishonest diplomacy. Tell who you are what are your credentials and your criminal record if
you have one and then discussions can start. Do not consider other people as stupid. It was a great opportunity gien to you to show your value, skills,
intellegence whatever and you cowardly and stupidly
miss it. Better be reasonable, if you can.
Peter, Peter! What is it about "I would tell them my identity before the test..." that you don't understand? They would not be "cooperating with a ghost or a zombie" --whatever that means.Delete
Why do you think I should jump at Hadjichristos's insincere bait?
Why don't you think he needs to explain all the claims he made on the old forum-- claims that never came true? (Not a one of them.)
I think you give these people way too long a leash. I hope your reputation will not be damaged as a result.
Excuse me, why is your identity so secret? What do you must hide?Delete
Why are you thinking in the place of others, saying
"bait" (you are the golden fish, some world wide known genius?) and why "dishonest"
who gives you the right to speak about dishonesty, when you are 110% venom? Yiannis hs explained you his motivation clearly and made it but you have some problems with
comprehension. (what's your age, BTW?)
Do not care for my reputation, better please try to show
you are a seeker of truth not only the Nagaina of LENR.
I think it was enough- better let's work. Who are you?
Tell it now just to me- I have sent yoiu at tets message to your yahoo address
I did not get a message from you. Please try again:
maryyugo [at symbol] yahoo [dot] com
Playing silly games with Hadjichristos is fun but I have to get back to the real world now. I will check again tonight or tomorrow.
One more thing. Hadjichristos told Jed Rothwell one thing and posted something different here.Delete
" There is a disconnect because Hadjichristos told
me they will not allow any test except under and NDA, and they will not publish a test at this time."
Jed is also concerned about previous Defkalion claims:
"Mary Yugo said they have "a lot of explaining to do" because they made claims of 30 machines and tests by the Greek government and blah, blah. Okay, I'll say, "a lot of explaining to do. A lot to answer for."
Even that is silly because a private corporation has no obligation to explain things. They do not owe Mary Yugo or me any information about anything. Period."
No, Peter, they don't "owe" anyone anything. However, if they want to believed, they have to start with truth and evidence instead of empty and most likely false claims.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Delete
Is that language really necessary on Peter's blog? What sort of person are you? Have you ever made a real contribution to any of the discussions? You embarrass yourself and appear like a fool to write that way.
BTW, my "ass" is quite skinny and well shaped, thank you very much. Hee haw!
Peter Gluck, as a man of science, why are you carrying on this ridiculous farce about Maryyugo's real world identity? This isn't some kind of tournament of honor in the middle ages. MY claims to be a PhD scientist with extensive experience. Let's assume for one moment that this is accurate (and I suspect that it is.) What will you do with that information? Suddenly have great respect for MY? Suddenly take back all the insults you threw at MY? Ignoring valid criticisms because the critic is anonymous is a lame charade. Who MY "really is" is quite irrelevant if the criticisms are valid. And ignoring them with a silly witch hunt is no credit to you or DGT.ReplyDelete
Well communicating with someone will expose you, or at least take energy from you. If that someone is an anonymous account you do not know what you are doing, like spending time with your worst enemy, or a teenager with a sweet tooth for science. I don't know, but like it's 'KISS' to do an independent test in a independent location, it's 'KISS' to not communicate with an account on the internet. Now Mary is a very strong communicator and have good reason to not give away hen's identity so really we have a Gordian not to solve, anyone want to play Alexander? No?ReplyDelete
Well DFG should just take the advise from Mary and perform the independent test at some well known university and no one will loose.
Many of the responses simply ignore the risk of allowing a test like this to proceed without DGT knowing who is really running it.ReplyDelete
The risk is simple, if MY turned out to be someone with no real credentials - just a vocal blogger - then the test would be meaningless and DGT's business credibility open to ridicule.
If MY turns out to be everything claimed, then the effort would be worth it. 'if'.
MY by insisting on anonymity puts nothing on the line but asks DGT to risk their judgement and credibilty.
Again people seem to be ignoring that the request to identify is private - MY communictes privately with Peter or DGT - but once DGT are able to validate MY's credentials and accept them they then want the test and identity all in the open. That becomes their reward for a successful test & MY may actually become a hero of new energy.
There is a lot of naivete being shown by those who argue that MY has a 'right' to remain anonymous while DGT aren't !.
Also to those posters insistent on foul mouthing each other. you add no value to this topic at all. Challenge MY as to the reason for anonymity but please don't resort to filth.
I think maybe you missed this DSM. I will say it again for what may be the TWELFTH time. Defkalion would have ample opportunity to obtain and verify my identity and credentials before the test. They'd have even more time to evaluate at least two of my colleagues who do not want to remain anonymous at all.Delete
Note that I don't trust Defkalion to protect my anonymity. They've done nothing but lie on their forum, then they became inappropriately insulting and patronizing on that forum and finally they deleted the whole thing. I don't trust them as far as I can throw a battleship.
My requirement are, therefore, that a detailed test protocol be agreed on before hand by Defkalion in public. And that they make it known that the test would be guaranteed to proceed if the experimenters I proposed (and I) all had appropriate qualifications. Those qualifications would also be agreed upon before hand.
Don't worry, DSM, Hadjichristos won't agree. He is simply toying. He thinks he's toying with me but in reality, he's toying more with the believers and with people like you.
Instead of discussion and agreements on how to test, we get a bunch of gobbledygook verbiage from Hadjichristos. Typical tangential speech like we saw so much of in the defunct Defkalion forum -- evasive and deceptive. I suppose you read that forum, didn't you?
It is truly an opinion when you say "Don't worry, DSM, Hadjichristos won't agree. He is simply toying. He thinks he's toying with me but in reality, he's toying more with the believers and with people like you."
There are many who see exactly the opposite. Your track record just isn't that pristine in terms of you dishing out put downs and insults to DGT and their people over a long period. You also say you wouldn't trust them as far as you could throw a battleship and interestingly I opined to Peter privately that I wouldn't trust you as far as I could kick you with no legs.
We can easily step above the posturing and rhetoric and simply get this thing done. I am convinced DGT should validate your credentials and your integrity and then get back and say yes or no. Any other approach is simply bad judgement.
All the wordsmithing and digging in to old garbage cans for crap to produce as some sort of evidence just doesn't cut it. Science doesn't sit still and rarely goes backwards for anyone or anything.
The credential have to be carefully analysed. Essen team, because they were physicist competent in calorimetry, have forgotten easy check that an electrician woul not have forgotten.Delete
As I said (was moderated) I propose that the testers follow advices , and do iterative tests...
nay-believers propose moving targets, so move with the target.
If something stupid is forgotten, it can be tested the day after...
My main idea is to build break-box with wires/pipes in, and wires/pipes out, and all measured between...
power, current, voltage, energy, waveforms, temperature, pressure, volume , with simple instruments... some insulator device (1/1 transormer, valve, filters, ferrites) may help too...
The prototype have to be put on a transparent table, connected only to the cutting box...
even probes, labview, have to be connected to the cutting box...
if fraud is ruled out, all the rest is evident...
the demo setup was good fro lab-tests, and for non paranoid people being present, but remote and paranoid are harder to convince.
Why does MY have to be further involved in this?ReplyDelete
She has put Hadjichristos in contact with two qualified people who can now deal with H themselves.
Well it isn't that often that we have to deal with someone who claims great things about themselves but who lack basic integrity.ReplyDelete
MaryYugo is a classic. This person is so one eyed bout her 'truths' that I am convinced she could talk her way out of hell.
This following thread shows how Mary and her Minders (her attack pack - JNewman, Zaroff, JKW) come to her rescue (in vain) when she gets caught out in a classic dose of lying. Mary and minders have begun attacking the credibility of esteemed professor Yeong Kim. To me that is as pathetic as these people can get, especially someone like Mary Yugo / Al Potenza who has claimed to have impeccable academic credentials. That just does not stck up when one looks at Mary's behavior in this thread.
My advice to DGT - keep as far away from this poser as you can.
Draw your own conclusions about the sequence.
DSM, if you're going to give Defkalion advice, make it good advice. Of course they should not ask me to test their machine. Nor should they ask Mats Lewan or for that matter, not Essen and Kullander either.Delete
They should ask UCLA, ORNL, CERN, Earth Tech International, Sandia Labs, or a similar organization to do an official independent test in their own facility. I've been saying that all along. You still have time to get onboard instead of perseverating about minutiae like a demented energizer bunny.
Apparently MY prefers to remain an anonymous internet critic then to participate in the process of vetting your R5 reactor.
Yes, as MY claims, the initial offer was vague, but most start out that way and are only later fleshed out between two willing parties. Unfortunately, MY was short on the "willing" part I believe, and sabotaged the invite, while in true MY fashion covered his share of the blame with insults and a lot of "papering over", here and elsewhere.
My guess is he realized that had he accepted, he may very well have found, to his horror, that the hyperion actually works. Then what? Go public like many before him, sign the validation, then get hammered by his colleagues and an army of MYs just waiting to fill his vacancy?
No, Al likes to dish it out, taking it... well that is another matter.
Again JH, thanks for the gesture. Would have been nice had it happened, but not really necessary.
May I ask two questions:
In my shoes... should this recent demo, along with Nelsons report, your and Prof. Kims slide presentation, offer proof positive of the hyperion?
When can we expect to see more?
Nonsense, Shane D. I have put Mr. Hadjichristos in contact with two accomplished and credentialed scientists who have offered to visit Defkalion in Vancouver. They will be prepared to discuss particulars of a truly independent test with him. The test would involve my participation and my revealing my identity although as has already been noted, that is completely irrelevant to any proof that Defkalion has what they claim.Delete
I predict that Mr. H will not agree on any protocol which properly measures input and output power to his device and positively rules out deception.
I take it from your post MY that you are still in the game?Delete
That is good if so. Perhaps if Mr. H would be a little flexible on the "when" you have to reveal yourself, we could get this ball rolling.
I predict thatDelete
- the condition demanded won't be technically (eg: no boiling) or commercially acceptable (no NDA) and you will say it is DGT fault
- if the test is done, you will find another thing forgotten, using the usual moving target method of hypercritical school of manipulation...
funny to see that isoperibolic calorimetry proposed again, ...
by the way now you moan on a tricked water metter, while it was tested by low tech bucket...
you moan about steam while steam was not counted as vaporized.
As you noticed I call for a definitive test, because I'm exhausted by hyper skeptical game...
Just ask to my school Junior Entreprise to build 2 measurement plane, one for electricity, one for water, and let us measure.
of course, good degassing, and steam enthalpy if pressure allow it.
that is psychiatry, not engineering.
You will see soon that the offer of scientifically and technically
skilled gentlemen who have tested and want to test the Hyperions
s greater than the possible number of tests.
I have no idea who the second tester is, but Henning Dekant is a choice bad for you, he is focused on calorimetry and, horribile dictu! is honest and unable to see invisible wires where they are not.
As regarding your prediction, you will make a spectacular career
as false prophet.
I like Henning (Quax). Very nice fellow. Over on Ecat News (ECW) he was always a voice of reason. He truly went where the facts led him and never partook of the personal attacks that the MYs relish.
However, from what I see his quals do seem about equal to Mats Lewan... so surely if the skeptics were not convinced by Lewan, then how will they react to a similar positive finding by Henning?
One could also argue that Lewan, with his impressive experience in dealing with these things is the better suited for the task.
Same goes with MY... what if he has solid creds, but no better then Nelsons, or Lewan? MY says he has a PHD, but then again he lambasted many a PHD before because "having a PHD doesn't mean you aren't a fool"... one of many rather derogatory comments in his arsenal.
My requirements for revealing my identity are not negotiable. I will only do so after Mr. Hadjichristos agrees in writing to an experimental protocol, materials and methods; agrees to the two people I named and I doing the test with such additional technical people as we name (within reason as to numbers), and agrees to a firm schedule for starting. All in writing and all public. And any NDA must be very narrow and specific and involve *only* the interior proprietary portion of their device.Delete
The above is in response to ShaneD's suggestion of flexibility to Mr. Hadjichristos.Delete
By the way, as far as I know, Hadjichristos has not replied to an email from the physics professor. That was sent four or five days ago to the specific email address Hadjichristos gave higher up on this blog.
I have asked the professor to send another with a read receipt request.
"You will see soon that the offer of scientifically and technically skilled gentlemen who have tested and want to test the Hyperions s greater than the possible number of tests."ReplyDelete
Exactly. That is why it never made any sense for me to do it. Hadjichristos's offer is not and was never sincere.
"I have no idea who the second tester is, but Henning Dekant is a choice bad for you, he is focused on calorimetry and, horribile dictu! is honest and unable to see invisible wires where they are not."
Irony is not a good thing to try when English is not your first language. It took me a long time to even understand you were being ironic. I would be delighted if Henning and the other person (a professor of physics) and I would have a chance to test Hyperions. Which is why I asked Henning to drop by on an upcoming trip to Vancouver, probably next month. My other colleague may be able to meet him there. I will join them in doing a test but only if a fully satisfactory protocol, including materials, and methods of testing can be agreed upon between them, with input from me, and Defkalion.
"As regarding your prediction, you will make a spectacular career as false prophet."
So far, my predictions are pretty good. Sniffex is bankrupt in the United States and its owners were assessed $6 million in fines. Steorn in more than six years has never demonstrated any overunity device nor sold a single product. Their forum and user group have been closed for more than two years now. They wasted 21 million Euros of investor money thus far.
While we're at it, Black Light Power has no products and no sales. Neither does EEstor. Mark Goldes sells nothing but silly promises and in more than 20 years of those still has no products and no independent testing. No free energy device *ever* promoted by Sterling Allan and Hank Mills has ever worked. Sterling continues to promote crook after crook and dreadful idea after worse ones. Several have been already convicted of criminal fraud, for example Carl Tilley and Dennis Lee.
I'd say my predictive record is pretty much intact. If you know of any device on the market now that I predicted was a scam, please let us know about it.
But Mary, a yest made by the arch-enemy of LENR+ has a special value. You have a special reputation, malefic and if you will not able to find a flaw in the test/demo this would be a proof for all the other bravos in the field.Delete
The people sent by you have not the same value.
IMHO reveling your identity is a sine qua non condition for any discussion. Non negotiable indeed
Sorry Peter. First, I am not an arch-enemy of LENR. I simply don't believe the extravagant and unsupported claims made by Rossi and Defkalion. I started out by being interested in those claims. But nothing I saw bore them out. My approval would be as meaningless as Lewan's or Essen's or Levi's. A definitive test of their technology is not something any reputable company would want individuals to do! What is so difficult about this for you (and a few other people) to understand?Delete
Not only am I not an enemy of robust LENR, I would be very happy to see it come true. The problem is that all I see from Defkalion and Rossi are broken promises, badly done and probably deliberately deceptive tests and demos, and no willingness to prove that their products work. They act like scammers. And I have past experience with past scammers. And so far, every company I suggested was a scammer indeed either was a proven one or is still acting like one. NONE has a product.
There is absolutely no reason and no need to use individuals to perform a credible test. A test by a major national laboratory or major university would be vastly better. Why no such independent test has been commissioned by Rossi and Defkalion is something their supporters should have serious reservations about.
Revealing my identity before a signed agreement from Defkalion that they will allow the tests I want to do with the people I want to do them with is non-negotiable. No reasonable person would ask for less. No sincere company would refuse it. Hadjichristos is simply not sincere. And if he were, he would most certainly not need me.
You need to start seriously considering this. I am running out of time and energy for constantly asking the same reasonable questions and making the same reasonable points and having tangential and irrelevant responses from the enthusiasts and no understandable response at all from that master of convoluted prose, Hadjichristos.
You are stunning in the way you serve up word salad.
Firstly how you brazenly say black is white and white is gray. And how you twist meanings and how you wordsmith your way out of holes you fell into. An extraordinary but negative talent. The below is a good example of MY.
"You need to start seriously considering this. I am running out of time and energy for constantly asking the same reasonable questions and making the same reasonable points and having tangential and irrelevant responses from the enthusiasts and no understandable response at all from that master of convoluted prose, Hadjichristos."
Well MY you have served your purpose. DGT have shown you to be the paper tigress you behave like.
Time to move on - shows over.
Gee, DSM, did Hadjichristos agree to a protocol? To a schedule? To talk to the scientists I would be doing a test with?Delete
Did he answer my questions about liquid flow calorimetry that he claimed he had in 2011 and again at ICCF17? Want the link to the paper?
Are you really following this thing or are you becoming the village idiot specializing in insults? I thought Greenwin had that job.
I can't be the village idiot as long as you insist on owning the job. Plus you have already claimed that just about everyone else who ever disagreed with you or who you took a dislike to (like John Hadjichristos) are in your queue well ahead of me.
Shows over !
Perhaps you could try answering my questions, Doug? Oh well... I guess not.Delete
Why should I answer ? - I am not DGT ? - Strange question ! (but IMHO not unusual from you)
It always looks to me like you are regularly deflecting attention from your shortcomings, and IMHO they are by no means minor.
You are the one who has nothing to lose at all if you are who you say and you have no skeletons in the closet nor hidden alliances with agendas.
I doubt that anyone would have issues in regard to sorting such complexities out in such a high risk (for DGT) venture.
Till yesterday there were two messages at firstname.lastname@example.org known to me claiming cooperation with Mary Yugo asking for a test. Both anonymous using nicknames! Is there some short of Sceptics Anonymous club out there?ReplyDelete
Defkalion GT CTO
---- Original Message -----From: Angus Og [mailto:email@example.com]To: firstname.lastname@example.orgSent: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 19:44:15 -0700Subject: For John HadjichristosDearDelete
Mr HadjichristosI noted your invitation to the internet poster who goes by the name of MaryYugo. I have been following your story since the beginning and would welcome the opportunity to visit your Vancouver facility myself if it would be possible to make a serious examination of the reactor you have developed. I live on Vancouver Island and could fairly easily accomodate to a time you propose. I am in contact with MaryYugo fairly regularly on internet forums and I have raised the possibility that we might visit together, possibly with another party in whom we have confidence, to perform measurements that would have the potential to confirm Defkalion's claims. You are not unaware that there is a lot of skepticism about both the claims and the tests published to date. We are known to be skeptical and therefore a positive view would be much noted by the community. (On the other hand, a negative one would be mostly unremarked, I suppose.)Naturally we would have to come to an agreement on how measurements are to be performed, and how your information security and ours would be protected. I myself am an engineering physicist with a PhD and many years of research experience in all three sectors: governments, industries and education. I am a professor emeritus at the University of Alberta. I have had some experience previously in assessing claims of alternative energy companies. I am now retired, but maintain a small development activity in energy storage. At this stage I cannot provide any details about others, of course, and I am withholding my actual name pending hearing your response. On internet forums I use Angus.
For the copy:
This baffles me also. I went back and read MYs posts, and did see that while he never claimed his representatives would identify themselves, he did seem to imply so.
At which time I also gathered that these reps would establish an agenda for proper testing, and then, and only then, would our very own MY reveal himself for all to see.
I honestly believe you want this. While MY may just be another in a long line of qualified people to validate the hyperion, it would, as has been acknowledged elsewhere, a nice publicity boost to introduce your revolutionary technology.
I think at this juncture that, at the least, MYs team has to publicly reveal themselves (we know about Henning), so that we can parse their qualifications.
MY refuses to come out until then, and I have to give him some leeway in this. Understandable with his incendiary history and brutal tactics that he has to be cautious.
Frustrating I know because you and your team are clear targets for all to attack, yet you have to deal with these internet cowards that set all kinds of conditions before they will reveal themselves.
I did invite you to respond to my email before I would communicate with you using my own name. It is regrettable that you decided to publish it rather than do that.Delete
I maintain my offer: contact me directly and I will see what I can do about organising a visit to you by myself and MaryYugo. Under our own names.
Did the system just demonstrated have a pump to feed water to the reactor or was it just supplied from city water pressure with an adjustable valve ? Was it necessary to adjust the water feed pump speed or valve to compensate for the back pressure generated in the reactor as the water changes to pressurized steam.? Have you seen problems with the build up of scale in the reactor coils and outfeed.?
Why must we care about highly sophisticated calormetry, I think there is an alternativ.ReplyDelete
Put away all the water in and out equipment.
Just buy a hot water storage tank of some larger size
(perhaps something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_water_storage_tank )
Connect it with the reactor, heat it up from room temp to let's say 80 C°.
All You need than is the total KW/h input once in an argon run and second in an active run.
1.6T field is at 20 cm distance from reactor is an absurdity.ReplyDelete
They haven't idea of what would be a so large field.
It's just for fools.
Kala jadu makes the worst effects on the victim when anyone is affected by this. Kala jadu is performed by the black magician.ReplyDelete
How about retracting (albeit late) your enthusiastic endorsement of this scam, Peter?ReplyDelete